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 Post subject: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:43 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:03 am
Posts: 12
For some reason, fire immunity saves monsters from falling meteors. This takes away from the distinctiveness of star magic when combined with fire magic, because fire magic also has a spell that targets monsters in the same way.

This is somewhat odd, considering that meteors are represented by boulders, and I think of them more as a physical impact than a ball of fire. Perhaps meteors resistance can be defined by physical resistance, or made weak and expensive but unresistable.


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 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Yes, meteor does fire damage, but it's unique in that you can target anywhere on screen. Of course screen sweeping spells like sea of fire will hit monsters behind walls too.
Still, I'll consider making meteor do physical damage or maybe half each.


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 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 3:55 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:03 am
Posts: 12
In fact, star magic as a whole is quite underpowered, since it doesn't provide a lot of utility if you already have fire magic. Also, I think Starsight should be reusable on a level, since it already has a high cost and there is a utility in this. Perhaps it can be also store some of its findings into the player's map.


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 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 8:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
I would make the case that Star Magic and Fire Magic both are pretty bad right now.

Free Magic (or Scroll Lore+Arcane Scrolls) outclasses taking any two fields of magic so badly right now (and even the 6 CP Elemental Magic). And by the same logic, spending 6 CP on Free Magic+1 School trumps taking any three schools. That limitation on 50% success rate means nothing when you can spam spells at a Nexus, or between floors with Leylines (and honestly if someone wants to waste points on Sorcery/Shaman, let them have the increased mastery).

I'd suggest bumping Free Magic up to 6 CP, Elemental Magic down to 4 CP (yes, seriously, at the least make it 5 CP), and adding to all single schools of magic "Spell Power increased by 50% when using any spell from this school". Leylines Contact is so much better than First Aid that it should likely be a 3 CP skill as well.

But if you look at the leaderboards, hardly anyone is playing a magic build anyway. Which is why I haven't really went into everything I think is currently broken about spellcasting, when nobody is doing it for melee/bow users.


Last edited by Xuande on Sun May 12, 2013 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Agreed, I see no purpose to limiting star sight's castings per level.
As to star magic not working well with fire, that is kinda true, but nobody said it has to. So taking both makes some spells redundant.
The same is true for other schools.
I think star magic is not too shabby compared to fire magic.
Fire spells are a bit more effective in power/damage ratio, but fire offers very little besides damage dealing.
Star magic has a set of utility spells in addition to the damage dealers.
Balance is an eternal process of course, and schools with empty circles
are the most likely to get new spells.
Maybe I'll implement "star money" spell for example( Great combo with God of Wealth) . That one will need and get a casting limit though. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 8:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
I find the most useful schools (assuming I refused to take Free Magic or Scroll Lore, yet wanted to be a spellcaster...which is rare) to be, in no particular order:

Illusion Magic: Vanish, enough said. Though Open is nice too, and in a build tailored specifically for it, Doppleganger is great. In a pure spellcaster build, Invisibility and Counterspell are both great too. Arguably the best school there is for a heavy spellcaster.

Water Magic: Refresh/Rain for thirst, Walk on Water/Freeze Water for safe passage, some lesser damage and summon spells. Decent all-around school.

Druid Magic: Its rather sad how good Magic Apple is. So good, it outclasses the rest of the school as a Lv1, 1 mana spell. By itself, it enables guilt-free taking of Gluttony (+2 CP) and Vegetarian (+2 CP extended version). With any form of support at all (Merchant, Water Magic, etc), food/water won't be a concern. I don't think much of the rest of Druid Magic, but Wolf Shape is probably the best sight spell there is outside of Star Magic (no HP loss, +2 Str/+4 Dex, Sight: 5).

High Magic: Quickening is in the running for best spell in game, Tunnel/Penetration are both great as well. Syphon, while not required in the late game, saves significant mana. Chaos is a 1-school method to get access to Magic Apple and Refresh, though be prepared to spend significant mana to get both each floor.

Notable mentions: White Magic (for the heals and Heal Poison alone), Time Magic (one really great spell offsets a lot of bad ones)


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 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Yes, I also think free magic and scroll lore are the most OP still.
Scroll lore denies level 14 and 15 spells, but you still get 15 as you like plus identifying all scrolls. And it's a great way to get the spells you could not get with free magic because they are on the same circle.

That's why I have changed them to take twice as long to reach 100% success rate.
So instead of 50% + 5% per cast -> 10 uses until 100%, it now goes:
20% + 4% per cast for scroll lore and free magic -> 20 uses until 100%.
That does not make a big difference for cheap spam spells like magic apple, but you'll burn a lot of mana and possibly die of botches.

Elemental magic for 6 may be weaker than free+scroll for 6, but I think that
comes from them being OP, not from elemental being bad.
If the elemental schools are too weak and not worth their 2 CP, then of course
getting all 4 for a cost of 6 is not good. If they ARE, then saving 2 CP simply can't be a bad deal.
The unpopular air and earth schools are full with nice utility spells like dig treasure,featherfall and remove traps for example and my standard build is in fact using the elemental magic skill.

I'm a bit unsure if ley lines is still OP after we fixed it. After all it's only 1 extra full charge. High magic allows me to make a new nexus with 2 charges each level .. plus siphon and meta magic.
I also think first aid is weaker than ley lines, though probably not so much to make it 1 CP.


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 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:09 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
High Magic requires a lot of spell circles to get to that point, which means surviving the early game. You also have to avoid stepping on a drain mana rune, which currently isn't avoided by Song of Magic.

I do think that set of four schools isn't worth the price of three. Air Magic has Featherfall, Disintergration (a pricier Open/Break Boulder, really), and perhaps Fly. Earth has...Portal I guess? Which is a good spell (outclassed in extended version, good in free), but limited to once a floor. Fire's even less impressive to me, some redundant damage spells, an okay sight-spell, and not much else. I've already said why I like Water Magic, but I wouldn't touch the other three even as a 4 CP package.

If you and others do well with Elemental Magic, then by all means keep it at 6 CP. I'm just not seeing myself ever using it, even if Free Magic/Scroll Lore are out of the picture, I'd rather handpick three schools instead of those four.


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 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:03 am
Posts: 12
Grunz wrote:
That's why I have changed them to take twice as long to reach 100% success rate.
So instead of 50% + 5% per cast -> 10 uses until 100%, it now goes:
20% + 4% per cast for scroll lore and free magic -> 20 uses until 100%.
That does not make a big difference for cheap spam spells like magic apple, but you'll burn a lot of mana and possibly die of botches.


If you do this, please make sure you add a practice command so that we don't have to do repetitive actions 20 times in a row to get our failure rate up to 100%.


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 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
You're not likely to have the mana to chain off 20 casts in a row without some sort of MP healing anyway.

While it isn't the method I would have used, it is a very interesting and logical way to try to balance Scroll Lore/Free Magic. I still think there should be some permanent benefit that a picked school spell should have over the same spell gained by SL/FM, though. I'm likely to just plow through and take Free Magic (plus possibly a school or two) anyway and deal with the increased set-up, eating Magic Apples to prevent food-related issues.


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