It is currently Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:31 am


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:13 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
I think it's partly due to the fact that my own power build uses free magic. :D
After all I still want to make sure laby IS winnable in single player.
In recent test runs with the development version I had quite a hard time when using all those long term skills together with all the short term flaws..
Though we also try to get every school something unique you don't get with taking the spells via SL/FM.
Like we already have for bard songs , summoner and to a small degree for white magic.

Concerning spell training: That's what we have the quick access slots for.
And yes, for any spell that's not a 1 mana cantrip, you would require at least 20x2 =40 mana.
Unless it is a vital emergency spell, I don't think pre-emptive training is very useful.
If one has nexus charges that would otherwise go to waste, then yes I guess.
Still you'd have to decide on which spells to spend your "training" mana.
This provides a meaningful choice for the player, which is a good thing imo.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:55 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
Using early floor Nexus charges and Leylines to "100%" my important spells early is normal for me as well (I'll typically take "No Basic Magic" over "Disjunct"/"Low Mana"/halved duration flaws). I have no doubt that the change to 20% base will impact the early game, making it somewhat harder to get a good start. What concerns me is how the late game won't be any different in that regard, I'll still have the same utility as before.

(Although, nerfing "Quickening" will go a long, long way towards fixing that)

We'll just have to see for ourselves when 4.9.1 comes out. I've been tinkering with various melee-leaning builds (that always manage to have some amount of Magic, its hard to resist), but I'll probably try a better version of my 4.9.0 build on 4.9.1 come release, and see how it does.


Last edited by Xuande on Fri May 24, 2013 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:21 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Some small tweaks can have a big impact on games like laby.
We weakened magic in an indirect way:
The game is a bit harder in some general aspects. And we did not power up magic, but melee.

Charge attack has been changed, round attack, fighting styles.
For people who think the game too easy I am implementing a permanent death play mode like the other roguelikes have.

"Awakening" ? What is that? Probably lost in translation..


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:15 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
Quickening, the meta-magic spell that lets you cast without ending the turn (I named it wrong). In 4.9.0, its just too good with its repeat castings and low mana cost.

I hope you're keeping the Offensive Style (Half of your attack is converted to damage), any attempt I have made to go mostly or pure melee focuses on that style, and pumping the heck out of Attack (and other stats, if they also boost Attack via a skill). I don't think Strength-focused builds have enough going for them - Sturdy is nice, but the damage cap at Strength 15 (or 20) is too low for late game on its own.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:55 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Instead of Free magic, we nerfed something much more overpowered.
You only mentioned it on the side: Scroll Lore.
As it is in current release, it is even MORE powerful than Free Magic.
But it only costs 2 CP LESS than that instead of the 2 CP MORE it should.
The ability to identify all scrolls alone is easily worth 1 CP (compare herb lore).
And as we are talking about long term effects, the necessity of finding the scrolls you want is not really limiting.
Free Magic is limited because you can only get one spell per circle.
This forces you to choose between several spells from circle x you all want.
You'd rather take another one from circle x instead of circle x+1 often.
Scroll Lore lets you mop up all spells you might have left, well no longer. :twisted:

Next release, Scroll Lore will also allow only 1 spell per circle. The -2 circle limit will be removed, and it will cost the same as Free Magic.
Scroll finding necessity wakes it weaker (-1 CP) , but scroll identify (+1 CP) evens that out. Also there are several skills that speed up scroll finding (Arcane Writing, Merchant) which are even worthwhile to take by themselves.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:55 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
Scroll Lore is potentially more powerful than Free Magic, that is true. But with Free Magic, you're getting a guarantee of your 15 spells (I know I'm starting the game with Magic Apple!), and you don't have to wait two spell circles longer to learn them.

Herb Lore > Scroll Identify because it comes with added perks, and because identifying a scroll is as easy as selling it to a merchant. If its any good, buy it back. Any time I take Scroll Lore, its highly likely I'm taking Arcane Writings anyway, and Merchant is a natural choice as well.

I'm more likely to compare the combination of Scroll Lore+Arcane Writings to Free Magic, since both cost 4 CP. Its an argument of consistency vs potential/upside.

Its interesting that you bring up Free Magic's limitation of one spell per spell circle, because I rarely am torn on which spell I want. One usually stands out quite a bit, once you're familiar with what all the spells actually do for you during a run. Limiting Scroll Lore to one per school is a good idea, but I question ever wanting to take it at the same cost as Free Magic (I would never take Scroll Lore without Arcane Writings [2 cp], and I would have to either take Water Magic [2 cp] or not take a food flaw [Gluttony/Vegetarian, 2 cp each]. Free Magic doesn't have these limitations.)

Just as an experiment, here's my take on a Free Magic run, one spell circle at a time. I will make the assumption that I am receiving no other spells, and taking the "No Basic Magic" flaw as well - these will be the only 15 spells I would have:

Circle 1: Magic Apple, easily. One could make the case for Chaos (you have access to everything!), but this is flawed. Too much mana usage, and Magic Apple/Refresh will have more to feed when you do manage to get them. Refresh would be a good spell in another circle, but there are other opportunities to get a good thirst-fixing spell.

Circle 2: I like Featherfall here. It helps that there isn't much else to choose from, its the only spell that is both reasonably useful and commonly used.

Circle 3: The first tough choice. Heal usually wins out for me (in other builds) as a simple way of healing from a fizzled spell or other minor damage. Illusion mimics a 4 CP skill, but it is inferior for any build with limited sight, because it blocks the square you're standing on from view. I'm usually using sight-limited builds, so its not a good choice for me. Polar Light is a good 1-mana light source option, but it isn't the last chance to get a good sight spell. Whirlwind is nice simply because its a 1-mana damage spell that will put in work, and if you have no other early source of damage you might be forced to take it. Taking Free Magic alone with Basic Magic blocked, it pretty much is forced.

Circle 4: Heal Poison, and it isn't close. There's a few damage spells here that are okay, but if you need a damage spell early I would recommend Whirlwind over them anyway, for the cheaper mana cost. Having access to Heal Poison makes taking the Poison Weakness flaw (2 cp) a lot less dangerous, especially since you can cast it as many times per floor as needed.

Circle 5: First off, if you're playing the free version, its very hard not to take Portal here as your wall-hack spell of choice. But I'm not, so I will usually opt for utility here. Walk on Water tops my list as it prevent me from having to take a HP-crippling transform spell, or the more mana-expensive Freeze Water later. Other possible options include Sunlight as your light source, or Summon Deathknight as a versatile early summon.

Circle 6: Not much here, which makes Wolf Shape an easy choice. It covers sight reasonably well (5), and grants a not-insignificant Dex/Str bonus as well, with no drawbacks. Freeze Water is an option if you still need an answer to swimming, and Fork is a cheaper but outclassed Quickening. If you're desperate for a better damage spell, taking one here isn't bad either.

Circle 7: Tunnel, another easy choice. If you're playing the free version and don't think you'll need to wall-hack your spells, then pick a damage spell or summon to suit your needs. But for the Extended version, Tunnel is about to be part of a superb combo.

Circle 8: Dimensional Rift completes the combo! While the mana cost isn't very cheap, Tunnel+Dimensional Rift gives you precise mobility in ways Portal users can only dream of. As for the free player, there are other, less stellar options. Dark Mana is probably the preferred choice for sustainability, but you'd be passing on True Light (best light spell, and a near-must if not running Cartography), Open (cheapest spell that can open doors, with a bonus of opening silver chests), and Remove Curse (if needed due to the Cursed flaw) to take it. There's a lot of good stuff here, but you can plan your spell path around the skills you started the game with pretty easily.

Circle 9: Vanish, while expensive, is one of the best panic spells in the game. Getting the mastery to 100%, however, is likely to be a problem early on. In the later floors, Vanish is a godsend to get closer to the exit when paired with Quickening (cast it alone, and you could be a View of Death victim pretty easily). About the only other spell I could make a case for is Starsight (to find the exit without Cartography), but good luck remembering the map in late floors.

Circle 10: This is a situational pick. If you haven't acquired or expect to acquire (via Merchant skill) some for of invisibility, then taking Invisibility here is the right call for avoiding some nasty spells/abilities. If you don't need it, True Healing makes a lot of sense, and Penetration isn't bad either (it doesn't stack with Tunnel though). This is also a spot where you can pick up a damage spell if you really need it.

Circle 11: Quickening, at least until it gets nerfed into the ground in the next version. If it should become a lot less useful, then Vampiric Aura will look better as a general healing source. Blessing of the Stars might be worth taking next version as well.

Circle 12: Perhaps the toughest spell to make a decision in, and a major reason why I like taking Water Magic or Illusion Magic to complement Free Magic. Starfire will be my endgame damage spell, but I cringe at not being able to take Counterspell (which makes traveling extremely safer) or Rain (which solves any remaining thirst issues).

Circle 13: Its amazing how much worse this circle is compared to the previous circle - there is literally nothing here I can't do without. Summon Elder Fey isn't even one of the best summons, but to this point I haven't taken one, and it can serve as a trap/invisibility scout, and a target to soak hits when going down to a new floor.

Circle 14: I haven't put Time Stop to a real test yet, so I'll exclude that as an option. It might be the only spell that can compete with Syphon, which is a pretty good sustaining spell once mastered. Cheat Death could be an option if you've been collecting the gems for it.

Circle 15: Disintegration Field wins out for its ability to bust through doors/boulders (redundant with Dimensional Rift, sure, but you can pair it with Quickening in situations where Rift would end the turn) while also acting as an alternate source of damage. Nine mana isn't cheap, but the only other spell I would consider here (Alternate Timeline) costs 30 mana - and will likely fizzle a lot. No thanks. Just make damned sure you don't cast Disintegration Field near the exit, or you'll be stuck forever.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:48 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
To clarify things: With the change, Scroll Lore no longer is limited to 2 circles below.
So you can get the same 15 spells with SL you could get with Free magic.
That should make it clear why I'm not willing to keep it at 2 CP even after this nerf.

I think it interesting that you have 3 spells from the supposedly worthless air school in your list. On the same note, I usually counter poison weakness with protection against missiles spell. With that one running I don't even get poisoned in the first place. ( Casters should not let themselves get pommeled in melee anyway so I don't consider snakes and such )


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
But that leaves you open to poison fields, especially in swamp areas (and rune traps, if you're not running Spellsongs). Heal Poison is a catch-all that only uses mana when you are poisoned, rather than using it in anticipation of being poisoned (with Leylines Contact, which any serious caster will use, this means casting it at least once per floor).

As far as Air Magic is concerned, the only outstanding spell in that list is Featherfall for ensuring access to chimneys, and replacing a 1 cp perk. Whirlwind is only there because I'm assuming no other spells (I typically will pair 1-2 schools of magic with Free Magic, or even Scroll Lore itself) which means I have no source of damage on the first floor, assuming Pacifist and no Mystic Attack. And I could pick any spell on Circle 15 and be fine, for the most part they're all quite bad, especially at a 20% base success rate. Disintergration Field "only" costs 9 mana and doesn't consume a valuable item before it fizzles.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:06 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Spells that fail don't eat their items, they only eat mana and they may botch.
Keeping Missile Protection running may be more expensive, but for me it is worth it for the immunity against the mechanical traps.
After all the next entry in death reason statistic right after combat and poison is "axe trap".
Though admittedly my character build concept is with permadeath mode in mind. I have to assume you simply reload after getting hit by a trap. Afterwards you can either avoid it with teleport spells or wipe it with disintegrate.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Meteors resisted by fire resistance
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:34 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
I don't save state my runs. The only time I reload is because of the spellbook bug I reported in my bug thread, to return it to normal. That's a big part of why I did my run in one sitting - to not get accused of cheating. I did not cheat in the leaderboard run, or any other run posted online. I did die once in the 149 floor run, but thanks to Merchant I had a total of two Heartstones, and if my Cheat Death scroll hadn't given me a pineapple I would have had three. I will be playing with permadeath and any other form of high difficulty that gets added to the game.

As far as traps are concerned, I find the important ones to avoid are all runes, so I take Spellsongs and run Song of Magic to avoid all damaging rune traps. Yeah, I may take an axe hit or poison dart periodically if I don't have a summon checking for them, but I can Quickening->Heal Poison->Repeat the dart and Quickening->Heal/True Healing the axe. Staying at full health all the time prevents axe hits from being fatal.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
GuildWarsAlliance Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net
Guild Wars™ is a trademark of NCsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.