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 Post subject: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:19 pm
Posts: 2
First of all congratulations on developing this awesome game.

I am attaching the save folder of my current most succesful game ever. Level 16, which I guess is not much impressive for the veterans here.
My problem is that I have reached a level where the exit is beyond walls. I could reach it if I could cast Portal twice, but that is not possible.
I guess there may be other ways to get past it like "Alternate time-line" but I don't have time magic and even if I had my spell circle is only level 13.

I don't know if this is intended. If it is it seems a bit too harsh, even for lostlaby. This is a level where the majority of builds will have to give up and does not comply with the phrase I've read about "The basic laby challenges are light, food, water, traps and monsters."
Maybe this is not a basic but an advanced challenge though.

This was under gentoo linux 32 bits. laby_5.0.0.
Here is a screenshot of the troublesome level. I am near of the downstairs and I have already used my portal, used it on the square I am standing on right now.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:55 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
Yeah, this is a bug, I reported it over at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=642

Consider yourself lucky that you only needed two portals, I had to deal with layouts like this: http://i.imgur.com/apIqj5i.jpg

Really, until this bug gets fixed, I'm taking a break from LL. My no magic builds would be just as screwed by these layouts, and I don't see an easy way around it. They happened about 4-5 times during my 150 floor run.


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 Post subject: Re: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
I finally was able to find and fix this bug. We'll try to get a new release out soon.
Syphon,Counterspell and Invisibility will get nerfed though. (That's your fault Xuande :P. ... Simply marching through all 150 levels INCLUDING broken ones :!: on the first try :shock: )
Well, Markus always said our players are better at laby than us devs. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:33 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
I'm curious, do the devs have access to play logs from high score submitting?

Anyway, glad to hear that a potential 5.0.1 is coming with essential fixes. Nerf spells as you'd like, because most of them deserve it!

Syphon, something like a one-third reduction instead of one-half would work, or have it work like Elder Magic and make mana cost -1, to a minimum of 1.

Counterspell is an essential to me...but if it gets nerfed too hard, sneaking is always an alternative, so keep that in mind. Two possible options are reducing its counter-rate (either something fixed like 80%, or some formula like min[spell power*5%,90%]), or ensuring that it only works once in a combat round (so I can't be ambushed by four spellcasters and repel all four spells).

Same thing with Invisibility and sneaking, really. The problem with Invisibility is that it gives too much of a boost to casters, while being nearly worthless for a melee fighter (since the invisibility is broken by an attack, but not by a spell cast). The fix is easy - make Invisibility wear off when any spell is cast or when any attack (melee, bow, thrown, mystic) is made.

The real problem-causers are Free Magic and Scroll Lore, but you already know this. If those skills didn't exist, the above issues wouldn't even matter, they'd just be the reward for spending 2 cp for their respective magic schools.

Quote:
Well, Markus always said our players are better at laby than us devs. 8-)


Well, I can't say I haven't programmed before...I've written some low-level games and some mods for others in a variety of languages. But its been several years since I've coded anything, the last time I was coding was for Battle of Wesnoth (http://www.wesnoth.org) under the alias lunar2. But I am in the habit of breaking online games when I can :lol: , this isn't the first time I've been passionate about being best at a game.

P.S.: I have no problems helping people get better at this game, or revealing "overpowered" stuff. Doing that just means the game will be made harder...and I love a good challenge.


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 Post subject: Re: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
I plan to make counterspell work depending on the strength you casted it compared to the monster's power. So only spells weaker than counterspell's own power will get a good chance of getting repelled. I particularly dislike how it completely negates magic vulnerability.

The only unloaded information exceeding what you see on the highscore page anyway are the player's status values: str.,dex, etc.

I have made it so, that invisibility is disrupted on the turn you cast a spell attack. So monsters can see and target you normally. Before, you could cast spells and also shoot arrows without getting noticed while close combat would even end the spell. Furthermore, I made invisibility effect exclusive with "illusion" because creating false images of oneself you can't be invisible. Unless you cast invisible illusions which then would not work obviously.
Ideally, I'd like to give the monsters different stats about how good they are detecting you by sight,sound or smell. The first may get hindered by invisibility of course; while sneaking should help mostly with the second.
It might also be plausible that some enemies have the spell "see invisible" running or an innate ability to that end.

Syphon got reduced to 1/4 mana saved. That way it is not a replacement at all for ancient magic. Syphon only works with spells costing 4 or more while ancient is especially useful for spells with low costs.

And with "devs" I meant laby devs specifically, not programmers as a whole.
Kinda like one can't proofread own texts properly - being blind to errors, always reading what we meant and not what we actually wrote.


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 Post subject: Re: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:19 pm
Posts: 2
Xuande wrote:
Consider yourself lucky that you only needed two portals, I had to deal with layouts like this: http://i.imgur.com/apIqj5i.jpg

Wow, that is a really broken level.

I could not overcome mine though since Portal can only be cast once per level. I went back all the way to level 1 to search for anything usable but to no avail. Had to simply give up on the game. 1st time ever.


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 Post subject: Re: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
1 in 5 levels after 10 is selected from the special types. Of those, one in 12 is the broken one. So on average only every 60th level is from the broken algorithm.
If you are lucky you can still reach the exit, which will always be at top left corner.
Of course, traversing all 150 levels, there is a good chance then to encounter this problem. :?


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 Post subject: Re: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
Luthien wrote:
Xuande wrote:
Consider yourself lucky that you only needed two portals, I had to deal with layouts like this: http://i.imgur.com/apIqj5i.jpg

Wow, that is a really broken level.

I could not overcome mine though since Portal can only be cast once per level. I went back all the way to level 1 to search for anything usable but to no avail. Had to simply give up on the game. 1st time ever.


Yeah, pretty much all the tools that would let you past that are either in Time Magic (which is Extended Version only), Portal (which is once per floor), Vanish (though you'd have to get extremely lucky, and its limited in casts now too), and spells/tools that break boulders. I had to clear one stage by using both my wall-walking spell casts for around 30 spaces (good thing my Speed was high enough!), and another even worse one by using Alternate Timeline to re-create the stage into something passable.


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 Post subject: Re: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Quote:
or ensuring that it only works once in a combat round (so I can't be ambushed by four spellcasters and repel all four spells)

Counterspell is supposed to end once it repelled a spell. There seems to be a bug if this does not happen. Still this is no serious drawback as one is very seldom the target of several casters in the same round.


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 Post subject: Re: How to overcome level which needs 2xPortal?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
Grunz wrote:
Quote:
or ensuring that it only works once in a combat round (so I can't be ambushed by four spellcasters and repel all four spells)

Counterspell is supposed to end once it repelled a spell. There seems to be a bug if this does not happen. Still this is no serious drawback as one is very seldom the target of several casters in the same round.


Yeah, I guess its a bug then. Its happened to me numerous times, and I assumed it was just a limitation of the engine rather than a bug.


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