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 Post subject: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:58 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:12 pm
Posts: 28
I am not so familiar with the multiplayer. My experience with it in 4.0x was that it just switched between characters. Now I am seeing some abilities that affect the "party" - so does it mean that all the characters can find the staff pieces together? Or they are still mostly independent runs?

I am asking because I did not see help for that on the main site or in the game. I am also not clear on normal v. permadeath, something I also didn't see explained.


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 Post subject: Re: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:30 am
Posts: 232
Permadeath mode basically means you cannot save the game.
So saving ends the game as well. You can use this if you have to/want to stop playing for today. You can reload the game when you start the game the next day. And the savegame will be deleted then.
This is the mode laby should be played. Because saving and loading all the time takes all the fun out of the game as there is no real ending to laby.

Multiplayer is real multiplayer now.
Characters should work together. they can exchange items but of course have to split treasures and the like. And because a different number of players has a huge impact on game difficulty there are different highscores for each number of players.


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 Post subject: Re: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
To be more precise even: permadeath mode DOES allow saving anytime. (shift+Q)
The program will also save the game more or less regularly by itself. At each new level for example.This is to make sure hardware/software crashes won't kill your progress.

But unlike "normal" mode, you can never LOAD the game to return to a previous point in time.:!:
So if you step on a trap in normal, you can load an old save and walk around that spot next time - in permadeath you can not. This is more obvious in the extended version where you get several save game slots. Those may hold the same dungeon walk at different states each - in normal. Permadeath always uses the same slot and will auto-save over that one.
Upon death, the slot will get wiped. :twisted:
I'm sure it's possible to hack around this, but if one does not want to play with permadeath, one can just use normal mode. So I hope there is not much incentive to hack.


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 Post subject: Re: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Multiplayer is the same in both version: It simply switches between characters = hotseat mode.
The game is easier that way of course as one can spread the required skills. Only one trap detection expert is required for example.
To compensate, more monsters are spawning. Also the sanctum and nexus still have 3 charges only, so one has to decide who can use those.
New features beyond blitz laby:
You can enter player trade screen by pressing <space> when on the same spot.
With <Tab> or <N> key you can change the order of action in-between a turn.

Score is still done individually. We plan on having those add up to a group score and have the group displayed as such on the web page.


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 Post subject: Re: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:26 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:12 pm
Posts: 28
Thanks for explaining! I am kind of competing with beating the game like Xuande, so my approach is 1 character with permadeath, I feel this is the "hardest" difficulty setting. I did finally see when I aborted a game the fact that it changed to load or delete permadeath slot, so I get it now.

As your game gets popular, you WILL get people who are copying that file in order to beat the game and get into the high scores. I did copy it a few times in the past (when there was no "normal mode") just to see deeper/larger dungeon levels and explore the game, but I would not submit a score based on that because it is not a real accomplishment.

I do not know how you can copy-protect the permadeath file against this unless you do save+load of this data from your own server so that players cannot alter it. That would mean to download each level generated and statistics each level, so you can audit if there is doubt about a legitimate play-through. It might even require recording all player actions so you can "playback" the run, which might be a good feature anyway for curious players. Recording the action data is not a huge amount of data, but it would take some programming to actually do it.

It is just an idea; it may not be in your goals to take so much effort to prevent it.


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 Post subject: Re: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:10 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
People will find a way to cheat if they want to, and not too much can be done about it. This makes for awkward situations, like the time Grunz suggested I could just reload when I hit a trap (pre-5.0). Nope, that's not how I do things. I had Constitution so I could face-tank anything outside of runes, which were being prevented via Spellsongs.

I have been an honest player, and I hope nobody doubts that. I try to post about my runs when I can, and explain the choices that I make, typically in a bug thread. I know that when I saw the current #2 high score entry (back before I could even play 5.0 it was #1, 5.0 was released broken for Windows, so I had to wait a week or two longer than some players) I had some questions about that build. I still think that player save-scummed, but with Permadeath off a player is free to do that.

My run took 10 hours and 38 minutes as an intentional single session run. I save/loaded exactly once, and this was to correct a display bug that affected me on Floor 120. I try to do my runs in one session to clear any save-scumming doubts - how would I clear 150 floors in that time if I reloaded every trap? Of course, now that the Permadeath label exists, its even more convincing (I hope!)


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 Post subject: Re: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:27 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:01 pm
Posts: 6
Huande, your posts were alwayes impressive. What curently do you usually choose during player setup?


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 Post subject: Re: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:47 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:12 pm
Posts: 28
Xuande, I am very interested in your choices and why. Now, I prefer to have a lot of magic (my choice of most/all the spell types I want), but the Mystic Attack can be resisted now although it's helpful when your magic is low. Do you grind to improve your stats early (taking long time) or run through the levels quickly with the chutes? Do you think it's easier 150 floors or to get all staff pieces?

I wonder at your skill choices, I understand most but curious about:
Spellsongs (which ones and when you use?), poison/magic weakness (how did you overcome it?), Pacifist (using Mystic attack, but what about banish resist?), and the Gluttony (even with magic apple it can become hard).

Does Thaumaturgy have any value?


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 Post subject: Re: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
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Xuande explained her method in some detail here. Note though, that I indeed nerfed all her most important spells and skills since then. So it should not work quite like that any more. But you don't have to deal with the broken levels.
Nerfs you'll have to deal with in 5.21 that Xuande did not:
1. "Free Magic" costs 1 CP more, and it's spell success grows with +2 only
2. Merchants have been reduced from 1 in 5 to 1 in 7 levels and don't get all those guaranteed powerful items (wands,stone heart,hour glass) any more. Stock is randomized and level dependent now instead.
3. "time stop" has a casting limit now, plus it no longer stops time effects (e.g. hunger) for you.
4. "Counterspell" now properly ends after countering one spell. That was a bugfix actually. It also no longer works 100% and thus can't nullify magic weakness like that any more.
5. "Invisibility" is disrupted for the turn in which you attacked or cast a spell. Also some monsters got the new "see invisible" ability.
6. "Poverty" and "Mercenary" are exclusive. Also bugfix: poverty now really reduces the gold amount you get as description claims.


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 Post subject: Re: Please explain multiplayer ?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:55 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
sol_ilya wrote:
Xuande, your posts were alwayes impressive. What curently do you usually choose during player setup?


To be honest, I'm not currently active. When there's a major new version, or when someone puts up a serious challenge on the leaderboards, I'll consider playing more. Having a fairly new PC has opened up a wealth of new games to me that I haven't had access to before - my previous PC barely could even run Lost Labyrinth on the later floors.

When I do play, its usually to dabble with melee builds and the No Magic restriction (not because its a good idea, but because magic is OP right now).

binaryman wrote:
Xuande, I am very interested in your choices and why. Now, I prefer to have a lot of magic (my choice of most/all the spell types I want), but the Mystic Attack can be resisted now although it's helpful when your magic is low. Do you grind to improve your stats early (taking long time) or run through the levels quickly with the chutes? Do you think it's easier 150 floors or to get all staff pieces?

I wonder at your skill choices, I understand most but curious about:
Spellsongs (which ones and when you use?), poison/magic weakness (how did you overcome it?), Pacifist (using Mystic attack, but what about banish resist?), and the Gluttony (even with magic apple it can become hard).

Does Thaumaturgy have any value?


Mystic Attack allows you to take out a variety of enemies without using MP. Since my builds tend to rely on Starfire for damage, there's going to be some enemies with Fire and/or Magic Resistance that I can't easily kill. Mystic Attack happens to work against the majority of these enemies, and I can avoid the rest. Also, Mystic Attack is a great early game tool that allows me to clear a few floors without running into MP problems, or having too low of a spell circle to claim a damage spell on Floor 1.

Spellsongs is almost purely to take rune immunity - this stops the majority of traps that would give me problems. 5.x.x made it so that you have to see an enemy to use single-target spells, so the ghost song sees occasional use. The rest, I nearly never use once I have access to the rune song.

Poison Weakness is overcome by having, and sometimes spamming, Heal Poison (Lv4 White Magic IIRC, which I take via Free Magic). Magic Weakness is overcome simply by having high enough LP, which I have via the Constitution+Wisdom skills.

Pacifist isn't a big deal. Early game monsters aren't immune to banish, and by the time anything is, you have other spells to solve the problem.

Gluttony+Vegetarian are really solved just by Magic Apple, if you're keeping a decently fast pace. In fact, in later floors my inventory would be cluttered by Magic Apples. If you're worried about it, you can buy a necklace/learn a spell to halve thirst and/or food, but it isn't needed.

When I use Thaumaturgy, I generally use it with Crafting to try to get an early start with weapons that deal "double" damage when crafted with a +elemental damage gem. As for actually using it to craft wands, you'd have to ask someone else.

Grunz wrote:
Xuande explained her method in some detail here. Note though, that I indeed nerfed all her most important spells and skills since then. So it should not work quite like that any more. But you don't have to deal with the broken levels.
Nerfs you'll have to deal with in 5.21 that Xuande did not:
1. "Free Magic" costs 1 CP more, and it's spell success grows with +2 only
2. Merchants have been reduced from 1 in 5 to 1 in 7 levels and don't get all those guaranteed powerful items (wands,stone heart,hour glass) any more. Stock is randomized and level dependent now instead.
3. "time stop" has a casting limit now, plus it no longer stops time effects (e.g. hunger) for you.
4. "Counterspell" now properly ends after countering one spell. That was a bugfix actually. It also no longer works 100% and thus can't nullify magic weakness like that any more.
5. "Invisibility" is disrupted for the turn in which you attacked or cast a spell. Also some monsters got the new "see invisible" ability.
6. "Poverty" and "Mercenary" are exclusive. Also bugfix: poverty now really reduces the gold amount you get as description claims.


1) I can overcome that. Its a good change, but not nearly enough. Honest opinion: Free Magic should not exist at all, and even though Scroll Lore is worse (I know you disagree), it shouldn't exist either. Both break the game in big ways.

2) Great! Although I'll mention that I didn't need a Heartstone on my run...though a couple of Hourglass did help out. This was a needed change, and depending on the new odds Merchant is probably still great.

3) So I could use Time Stop to burn off things like curses now? Might be a buff...I know hunger/thirst weren't issues for me, irregardless of Time Stop. Having a cast limit is good, though, don't know what its currently set to.

4) I wasn't using it to nullify Magic Weakness, I was using it to nullify status - like being warped to the entrance or losing magic. As long as it still does those things, Counterspell is useful.

5) So invisibility is close to useless now. I guess its time to put more emphasis on Speed, and combine it with Sneaking - assuming Sneaking isn't also killed by "see invisible".

6) Mercenary isn't something I use to help win the game, it pretty much reads "Increase your high score at the end of the game". If I wanted help with gold, Heirloom makes a much bigger impact. Mercenary just makes it so I can reach or get closer to the score cap for gold after 150 floors.

So, with a couple tweaks to which Free Magic spells I claim, and maybe a couple of skill changes (Haggle/First Aid are easy drops, that frees up 2 CP after accounting for Free Magic's increased cost), I'd say my original build would still hold up if anyone wants to try it.


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