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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:04 pm 
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Posts: 270
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Well I was thinking, 43 power the Cloud of Death = 129 HP all creatures die on level? This may not work deeper down as I suspect they have > 130 HP on average; I think can use Pestilence or Armageddon to hit all monster THEN use this though, it is based on current and not max HP? When it says "uses item", I assume a torch or something isn't working, but it needs to be worth like 200+ gold? I don't pick up many items.
It is using actual HP. But cloud of death is not a level sweeper, it only works on a 3x3 area, like a fireball. The required worth of the sacrificial item differs from spell to spell. If you don't bother collecting items, then you will surely lack fodder for those spells.
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In fact, the only way to "farm a level" I can think of is to use the Alternate Timeline spell to re-generate the level, so there are more drops without going deeper. I have not tested the theory, but since it has no casting limit, and the new level should have a new nexus (and laylines regenerate?), theoretically you can keep playing the same level to say power up on God of War/Death and get more gold
Oh yes, quite right alternate timeline does need to have a limit. I put that in right now.
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How can you resist 100% either ability? I think for Stone only the Earth spell of protection, for Death Gaze no way?

See here.
Reincarnation will save you, just as heartstones will.
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My solution is to Genocide anything that has the ability! But, I am not sure how many monsters do have it or if this works on them...
Only on some of them, as you can't wipe undead,demons and such.
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This is because to explore larger level, all hidden monsters will appear and becomes very difficult. I did assume it was infinite, but it sounds like there are finite number of hidden monsters to appear, you just need enough mana (with 3x nexus recharge) to get them all?
What do you mean with "hidden" monsters? Invisibles, bone lurkers, ambush ?
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Does the "Penetration" meta-magic bypass the magic resist completely, even 100%?
Yes, totally ignored.
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Temporal Rift appears the cheapest "save or die" kind of spell, I use elder magic so cost=1, and penetration cost=2. Fork=1, so 3 mana can take 1 monster (any), and 4 mana can take 2 monsters (any) if they are both in sight.
You can't stack meta magic, second will replace the first.
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Xuande mention Feather Fall as important spell -- lets you use pit as shortcut, where you can normally not except for Climb skill? It has no Duration, so you could not cast it to anticipate a pit trap, you would need to Fly instead?
See http://www.lostlabyrinth.com/index.php?p=faq. You can't do down trapdoors deliberately. Again game balance over logic.
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Trap damage I do absorb with White Protection so no problem (yet), however the danger is ending the turn in front of dangerous monsters (like Death Gaze). You mentioned Missile Ward. In what case does encountering a trap not end the turn? Even 0 damage, it does end turn.
It always will end the turn. You can only prevent that by not stepping on the trap = removing it with "remove traps" earth spell.
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Is Trap Alert the best spell for detection, and are there traps that are so hard it's not possible to 100% detect?
As you can see on the second page in character data screen, trap detect will cap at 90%, so 10% are undetectable.
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Which damage does White Protection not absorb? As I mentioned some small (1-3) damage does get through. Also, sometimes it takes no Mana to absorb small damage (but I think it should take at least 1 per event that isn't 0 and not damage\5).

It won't stop true damage (cyan blobs). Sources of true damage are hunger,thirst,mystic attack and botched spells.
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Hymn of Death - what is the effect? Is it all monsters in level or visible only? What is the chance? Can a monster resist this?
Works on the whole screen, like the lullaby. Some monsters are immune to spells songs. Can be seen with monster lore.
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Genocide - which monster can or cannot be affected?
see above.
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Neutralize Poison - only poison fields, or can you remove poison from yourself? It is strange only White Magic has anti-venom type of spell.
Well, it is white's big plus after all. Other schools only can prevent getting you poisoned. Still a lot more options than fighter characters have to deal with poison.
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Reincarnation, does it work on all types of death? Also, Reincarnation + Reverse Time = 3 chances per level?
Yes, any kind of death. Reverse time does not reset spells, only hp/mp.
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Remove Traps, everything "on screen" (within 5 tiles or sight radius?)
Area is a circle that varies in size with power.
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Unearth Treasure, this is L13 spell and expensive, so I assume it's not just a shovel replacement, but it actually "finds" a treasure in each spot? But, then it doesn't have a casting limit so that seems powerful?
It is a shovel replacement only. Thus I have reduced it's costs for next release. Still a nice spell to get item fodder for sacrifice spells.
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Chaos - any school or only those you know?
Any.
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Syphon - is it now 1/4 rounded down, reduction in costs right?
Yes. But I have increased that to 1/3 for next release as it is mostly unprofitable with 1/4.
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Extend - I was seeing +12 turns on all active magics, can it be more? Is based on Power?
It IS based on power, the increment is divided by the number is spells that get extended though.
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Nexus - what item requirement do I need to make a new one?
Just has to be expensive enough.
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Sense Traps - this plus Trap Alert = 100% detection? What is the bonus of each?
Trap alert = +30%, Sense Traps sets detection to 90%, which is the maximum you can ever have. So they don't stack.
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Open - it does open Silver chest and everything else except Gold, correct?
Yes.
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Vanish - it is always a random tile that is not a wall/solid obstacle on the level?
Yes, random tile. And it won't put you into a wall.
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Invisibility - 80% dodge is only of physical + ranged attacks, and not magic or monster ability?
It can protect you from ANY monster ability in that it can prevent the monster detecting you and thus it won't DO anything.
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Counter-spell - is this a 50% like Dispel, or it is 100% (always interrupts magic attack) ? Can this be used instead of 100% magic resist?
It has a random chance to work, depending on it's power compared to the monster's spell. This chance can easily be 100%. Counter will end after one enemy spell though, so you have to re-cast. If you get hit by more than 1 spell, only the first can be countered.
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Star Fairy - it moves through one wall, but not more than one wall at a time. Is this the intended behavior? (It is not like Ethereal which ignores all walls).
Yes, intended.
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Call of the Siren - unless monster "cannot be charmed", if you did this with meta magic penetration, would not all monsters in the level basically become "friendly" and let you pass through? It is a cheap spell with no item cost, this would make it very powerful.
Works "only" on full screen , not on whole level, but still very good spell yes. A lot of monsters are un-friendable though.
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Heal Poison/Remove curses - only White magic, or there are other ways to deal with these? This is why Cursed is so bad, you need L8 magic Remove Curse (removes or reduces by Power turns? also cost a ton of Mana) but also True Light so it is a tough pick for the Free Magic.
Good thing we have at least SOME limit to the power of free magic don't you think? And of course nobody is forcing you to take the cursed flaw.
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Cure Poison/Curse of Others - you cannot use on yourself if playing solo, right?
Nope, you CAN use it on yourself.
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White Magic (solo balance) - There are 3 flaws you cannot take with this (Poison Weakness, Cursed, Forsaken) which is more than any other school, I think some other schools have only 1 flaw you cannot take (High Magic/Star Magic have 1 that I know of, other than "No Magic" of course). But, in single player mode several of the high circle spells do not help you. So, I think most people will access it with Free Magic only to get more CP from those flaws.
Yes, but allowing white mages to take poison weakness seems wrong to me too.
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Chrono Shield - what chance?
30 + spellpower in %.
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Haste - exclusive with Fast Attack, or you can do 3 attacks?
You can. Not OP imo as you'd have to play a mage/fighter hybrid to profit - those are not easy.
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Dimensional Swap - I notice you can swap anything in sight radius, but through walls also. Was this intended?
Yes, I did this because requiring two support spells seemed a bit excessive to me. Using it without a wall between you and the monster is a waste of a great teleportation spell after all.
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Etherealness - 1* duration means it is always 1 turn and you cannot Extend, right?
yes.
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Time Snatch - what kind of items you can get? And, it does disappear after duration of spell?
Force shield, hand grenade and laser rifle. Yes, vanish like warlock items.
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Anchor Teleport - this is like making a new pair of teleports that you see naturally in maps? It will link 1 to 1 or 1 to many?
Yes, like natural teleports, but only 1 of each end can exist, so it's a 1-1 link.
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Time Stop - what is the effect? Why would I use instead of just Quicken a spell since it is only a single turn?
It will make all others (monsters and player) skip their turn. And duration of "1*" does not mean one turn here.Its duration = power/5
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Alternate Time-line - what gets reset, and what is not reset? I would assume Mana is not reset so that cost 30 has a meaning. You do move to the level entry point when you cast it?
Level is re-created with a new random seed and you get placed at the entrance. HP/MP and spell limits stay.


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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:27 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:12 pm
Posts: 28
- Alternate Timeline limit: it should be 1-3x, and the only reason for possibly 3 is I have heard some levels generated are "unsolvable" (mainly the outdoor ones), if this gets fixed (so there is a definite path every time even on special levels) then limit 1 means you can fix your own mistake if you caused level unsolvable (example: disintegrate the exit haha).

- Deathgaze: OK so "unlucky" is NOT a flaw I want to take, if I want the 90% chance (caps 5 = 25%). In fact, you need increase 15->20 through Luck perk, which explains why Xuande had taken it. Star Blessing will get me +5 eventually, and there is a Luck spell adding Power value to Luck, it's feasible to reach 18-20 = 90% resist. For the other 10% bad luck we have Reincarnation.

- Stone: There is the spell to Protect, is it 100% resist? Does Luck also roll in a similar way like with Death Gaze? Reincarnate should work if you get hit with this, since you said all death types are covered by it.

- By "hidden monsters" I meant the ones that are on the map but not yet spawned (they will pop out later randomly). Meaning, there is a fixed amount of monsters in a level, then no more (except ambush with chance each turn, unless using Song of Loneliness). So it is possible to "clear" a level to make it safe so you can explore it fully.

- Traps: Normally I run unobservant, so the detect % is useless in that case. Otherwise, to run Ethereal and NOT risk losing your turn to traps, you need Sense Traps to cap 90%, and then you need the skill Trap Lore to remove them as you move because in Ethereal state you cannot cast a spell to remove them manually.

- Sense Traps: Oh wow, I didn't realize that one was more powerful than Trap Alert (which is higher level). If you have it, you don't need Trap Alert after all.

- Remove Traps: is the radius = Power? If so, Arcane Power gives it +12 radius to start, so it removes many traps even though it is expensive to cast.

- Poison: "Other schools only can prevent getting you poisoned" -- wait, which spell from other school does prevent it in the first place? Or you meant just removal of poison fields?

- Syphon 1/3: yes at cost 9 (Elder Magic), it is hard to pay for itself at 1/4, so this will help its value a lot.

- Extend: it seems to be about Power * 5 / activespellcount? It is good to know that Power does increase it.

- Invisibility: Xuande mentions it can work with Sneak, but I assume the chance to pass a monster undetected is still capped 80%? But for stopping a turn a few spaces from a monster, is it max 80% or 100% they will not *see* you and react?

- Cure Poison/Curse of Others: YES! You can use it on yourself! With Arcane Power, I suppose these versions would reduce the poison/curse turns more than the earlier ones? Or do all of these type remove it completely regardless? It gives me another chance to get with Free Magic if I didn't get the first one, which I didn't realize.


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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:13 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:12 pm
Posts: 28
I tried some tests, including using most magic schools and get to high Circle to test spell effects.

Sight Effect:
- Perception 15 with no other light/skill provides about 2 tiles radius sight.
- Sunlight + Perception 15 provides large radius but still sight blocked by walls
- Must not be Short-sighted and must use True Light to see entire view
- I do not think even Night Vision + Perception (20) + Any light spell other than True Light does this, so to get this effect "see beyond walls" 11x11 tiles full view, True Light must be taken as spell pick

Cartography + Monster Sense compensates well for Short-sighted or not choosing True Light spell. It is partly for safety (I think Monster max ranged/spell range is 4 tiles like the player?) but also to see the map layout and then Dimension Swap with monsters strategically you do need to see monsters out to max range.

Fighter test (No Magic, but no other Flaws):
- Can't really operate without Swimming. It's trivial for Mage with spells, but it's very hard on Fighters.
- Even without flaws, food is a major problem. Even with Merchant + Heirloom, although water can be refilled, there are simply not enough Food items sold to allow you to explore the entire levels.
- Cobweb wastes many turns, and Strength doesn't seem to help so I assume Dexterity is needed here.
- No way to avoid Magic Traps, no matter the skills, can be frustrating.
- Very dependent on items found and sold = less control. All the merchants I found on the map carry limited stock = bad. So I had to get Merchant trait just to get food+starting weapons at all.
- Monkey Grip + 2 weapons + fast attack is powerful combination, if you can get Attack + Strength up.
- Armor Mastery is essential. The plate mail it comes with does prevent most damage for many levels, but also since Fighter is so equipment-dependent, he must put on all found armors to help, but cannot afford Encumbrance on move (more food use) or stats.


Deal with monsters:
- Temporal Rift is cheapest if no resistance/low resist
- Blow Away is cheapest if banishment resist/low magic resist (I think only Magic resist applies here?)
- Fork + one of the above, if low-mid resist
- Penetration + one of the above, if magic resist is high, is cheapest
- Alternative: Sneaking, since I run Invisibility, but you need to be in lower-HP form to really be good at it. I also suspect, stronger monsters can lower your % so you cannot keep it at 80% on higher levels. Still, for long time only having to use Mana to kill 20% of monsters does sound appealing while getting the Mage stronger. In animal forms, you don't need to cast Light spells, but also you don't get benefit of True Light full view, which means the Cartographer + monster sense might be more important to a Sneak build. I am not sure what value of monster you subtract from Sneak% besides monster level, some kind of Alertness value?

Sneak skill + cat form = 60%
Sneak skill + concentration = 95%
Sneak skill + invisibility + cat form + concentration = 60% ... wierd


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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Quote:
I have heard some levels generated are "unsolvable"
That is fixed in 5.2 already
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Stone: There is the spell to Protect, is it 100% resist? Does Luck also roll in a similar way like with Death Gaze? Reincarnate should work
Yes,yes and yes.
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"hidden monsters" I meant the ones that are on the map but not yet spawned (they will pop out later randomly)
Ah! Ha ha yes those you can stop. :lol: But I want you to find out yourself, how to. :twisted:
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Poison: which spell from other school does prevent it in the first place?
1. You can remove poison fields with druid or air. 2. The other typical source of poison are darts and arrows. Those can be stopped by missile protection, shield or invulnerability.
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Invisibility: Xuande mentions it can work with Sneak, but I assume the chance to pass a monster undetected is still capped 80%? But for stopping a turn a few spaces from a monster, is it max 80% or 100% they will not *see* you and react?
It is a constant 80% chance you are not detected. There is a second independent test for sneaking. So it does kinda stack. Invisibility is disrupted for the turn if you attack or cast a spell, so you can't throw spells and have the monster ignore you.


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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:40 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:12 pm
Posts: 28
I am going from long ago memory on hidden monsters, but I seemed to recall there is some graphic that they are about to appear (a "haze"), if you stop on the tile it will prevent that one from spawning. I tried to do this, but I notice things like to spawn outside your sight radius, so I did not see anything just skipping turns. There seem to be fixed number per level, it tends to trigger a spawn when you kill one (but out of sight). But, there is a maximum total number which is what I found with my Vampire test, beyond which level will be totally clear other than ambushes; and of course those not initially present drop nothing of interest. In fact I tried to use God of Death with these, and I don't think they can trigger +Mana or +Life event either so there is no reason at all to purposely wait for them and attack them usually.

I did discover that spell cast wakes them up, although I seem to be able to cast enchant without them noticing so maybe just directing attack at them causes it. Yeah, I did get the double effect because I knew it was above 80% effective that I was able to pass undetected. I still don't know why my sneak was lowered in cat form, I think it ignored Dexterity and just sets it at 70% base, but then Unlucky -2 Luck subtract 10% from that? Although, following that logic, I don't see how I got to 95% base (it would have been higher) or if it just maxed out at that with 10 Dexterity from Concentration spell (like how trap detect shows max 90%, some other things will show > 100% base in Attributes view).

I did find a surprise, some kind of Mage monster was able to See Invisible, so I didn't sneak past him. Then he stopped all my active effects and I was trapped. haha, surprise! Sneak loses its power as you go deeper, and Invisible doesn't work on everyone, but the more I learn, I think it is still a good way when Mana is still low, to avoid using precious Mana having to remove each monster that blocks the way.


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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:45 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am
Posts: 270
Quote:
recall there is some graphic that they are about to appear (a "haze"), if you stop on the tile it will prevent that one from spawning.
Nothing like that in PB laby. That must have been blitz basic laby.
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I still don't know why my sneak was lowered in cat form, I think it ignored Dexterity and just sets it at 70% base, but then Unlucky -2 Luck subtract 10% from that?
Exactly. Perfect analysis. 8-) Shape shifting overrides both view and sneaking. So you can get better at both, or worse. It allows you to bypass short sighted, but also will prevent true light view. Similarly, the low life shapes will set sneak to 70, independent of your dexterity or sneak skill. And was a bug, where the sneak cap is wrongly applied doubly. This makes sneaking in deep levels impossible, as the monsters will be of too high level. The cap should only apply after monster detection skill is subtracted from your sneak chance. So next release, sneaking will work better than it does right now.


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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:27 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:12 pm
Posts: 28
I started a new job so I don't have as much time to play and experiment. If you have any change you want me to look at, let me know. I am trying to do some testing of all the features on Laby, but I don't yet know all of them in depth.

Is there some more detailed document source like a wiki? I thought it would be good to put how certain spell/ability works and quirks/tips in a wiki because the front page document is not up to date on all the formulas, but also it is an overview so for each spell/ability its own page (like say spell doesn't work on certain monster or other odd knowledge) easier to update?

Also, do you have any detail on the updated project you were looking at beyond beta? Was it the "Lost Labyrinth DX" I saw in forum (but that post was older)? Are you considering other distribution platform like Steam, or you don't feel it is ready?


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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:29 am 
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We had a wiki once but I deleted it because nobody contributed to it except the developers.
We better update the formulas in the FAQ section. Thats what most players use.

We already applied for steam but they did not want us there. So we are on desura only. Laby is an excellent game but lacks a more polished outfit. We are not graphics artists so this will probably never change. We concentrate on improving the game game itself.

I personally did not get the new version of laby to run on my machine yet.
I do not have much time for development recently because my 20 month old daughter uses all my spare time.
So I do not really know the current state of the new version.


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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:58 am
Posts: 56
Interesting discussion going on here. I'll take some time to read through it all in a bit. I haven't been keeping up to date lately, aside from checking the high scores now and then...still amazing that my Day 1 run is holding up so well (is anyone making attempts with Permadeath on? Cmon, give me some motivation to improve!)

View of Death, while certainly a reason to take Luck, is not the only reason to do so. A significantly reduced botch rate on spells and fewer ambushes were also compelling reasons.

I haven't solved the "fighter" dilemma quite yet myself, but the general method I've been trying is to combine Fighting Styles (Offensive Stance) with high Attack builds. A shame it doesn't stack well with Bloodlust, but it seems to be the only way to scale damage into endgame - Crafting Ice/Fire/etc damage with dual wielding only works until the point when monsters commonly resist those elements.


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 Post subject: Re: binaryman's Journal (and other stuff)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:36 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:12 pm
Posts: 28
Well, I always play permadeath single character runs. I am trying to win somehow. I normally try to run through levels quickly, I learned pits can be anywhere but usually closer than the stairs to featherfall. I didn't know Luck affects the ambush chance, but I like to spellsong Loneliness to avoid it entirely. I tend to get Free Magic + most of the critical spell schools (I made a grid of what I want in each type). Illusion/Time/High and sometimes Druid/Water/Air, usually Free White Magic (because flaws prevent it normally).


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